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[Student example for testing] outliers long form response

Growing rice requires intense and precise labor, with no shortcuts or machinery. Due to the rigorous labor, Asian cultures developed a deep respect for hard work and persistence. Unlike idealistic Western sayings, Chinese proverbs emphasize effort over ease. Because this sentiment surrounding farming eventually evolved into a universal cultural one, people belonging to such cultures sustained a similar approach in their modern work to that of their farming ancestors. This cultural mindset translates to academic persistence, especially in regards to math.

Gladwell introduces a study done by UC Berkeley professor Alan Schoenfeld, who conducted a study on students solving math problems. According to Schoenfeld, “It’s not so much ability as attitude. You master mathematics if you are willing to try” (246). Math is often seen as a subject that demands "natural talent," but Scheonfeld's study reveals that grit and perseverance matter more. He explains that success in math is about attitude, not innate ability. In a similar vein, students from cultures that value persistence are more likely to stick with difficult problems, reflecting the patience and discipline required for farming. In turn, this leads to greater mastery over time, not because these students are smarter than their Western counterparts, but because they are more willing to struggle in a productive manner. Scheonfeld's study is evidence of the fact that cultural legacies often shape academic outcomes, especially in subjects like math, which require sustained effort.

A cultural legacy refers to the values developed over time—often across generations—that shape the collective attitude and behavior of a society. Cultural legacies shape how individuals approach learning and overcome challenges. In cultures that value hard work and persistence, success is more prevalent. Gladwell ends Chapter 8 by writing the Chinese proverb: “No one who can rise before the sun 360 days a year fails to make his family rich” (248), echoing his broader sentiment that success is not just personal but cultural, too.

General Document Comments 0

Oct 31

Liam K Liam K (Oct 31 2025 1:48PM) : how more

Scoring Your Evidence and Commentary

For the prompt about evidence and commentary, your writing would likely receive a score of 3 out of 4.

You support multiple claims with specific textual evidence—for example, referencing the UC Berkeley study by Schoenfeld and quoting the Chinese proverb from Gladwell’s work.

Would you like to see more?

Oct 31

Liam K Liam K (Oct 31 2025 1:49PM) : how would I make this score a 4 more

You consistently explain how the evidence you use relates to your argument about hard work and cultural mindset, but you sometimes summarize rather than deeply analyze how each piece of evidence supports a broader line of reasoning.

Would you like to see more?

Oct 31

Liam K Liam K (Oct 31 2025 1:50PM) : where should i analyze more deeply more

One spot where you could dig deeper is in clarifying the direct connection between the Schoenfeld study on math persistence and the rice-farming cultural legacy you reference at the start—push further on how attitudes shaped by farming practices specifically manifest in academic settings.

Want more detail or advice on another area of your commentary?

Oct 31

Liam K Liam K (Oct 31 2025 1:58PM) : what would this score more

Score for Evidence and Commentary

Based on the AP English Language Evidence and Commentary rubric (see the detailed criteria from your file, page 1), your writing would earn a score of 3 out of 4 for this section.

Your response references and explains details from at least three sources (labor of rice farming, Schoenfeld’s study from Gladwell, Chinese proverbs), always tying them back to your argument about cultural persistence and academic outcomes.

You provide strong, relevant evidence, such as specific quotations (“You master mathematics if you are willing to try” and the Chinese proverb), and you generally establish a line of reasoning from cultural history to academic attitudes.

Where you do fall just short of the 4 is in the consistency and depth of your commentary: while you connect your pieces of evidence to your main argument, some connections (like the transition from farming culture to modern academic persistence) could be explained more fully to explicitly show a logical, step-by-step progression.

Want to see some ways you could push for a 4? Or want to talk more about how to strengthen commentary and clarify each link in your reasoning? Tell me if you want more!

Nov 10

Paul A's Question Paul A and/or AP English Language and Composition Coach (Nov 10 2025 11:38AM) : How would you score my first paragraph? more

AP English Language and Composition Coach with Paul A's edits:

Rubric-Aware Coaching Loop

Stage: Drafting (first body paragraph for a rhetorical/literary analysis)

1. Rubric Categories Self-Assessment

Please confirm: What is your exact prompt? Is this for a rhetorical analysis of Outliers by Gladwell? That helps me align feedback precisely.

2. AP Rubric Evaluation

Thesis (Row A)
- Your main claim is implied: farming culture shaped persistence in modern academics, especially math. For reasoning clarity, consider making the link to Gladwell’s argument more upfront.

Evidence & Commentary (Row B)
- Evidence: You incorporate relevant Gladwell quotations and paraphrased research.
- Commentary: You explain how farming culture influences current mindsets, but some points could be more explicitly tied to your thesis and Gladwell’s rhetorical strategy.

Sophistication (Row C)
- You attempt a broader cultural analysis, connecting proverb to present-day outcomes. Some moments hint at complexity but could be deepened, especially the mechanism between legacy and present behavior.

3. Strengths

- You select apt textual evidence (Schoenfeld, proverb) and explain their meanings.
- You introduce the concept of cultural legacy, which shows theoretical awareness.

4. Growth Target

- Growth Target: Sharpen the line of reasoning—more clearly connect each piece of evidence to Gladwell’s rhetorical purpose or your thesis.
- Push commentary: How does Gladwell use these elements to persuade readers?

5. Socratic Scaffolding

- Where is your thesis? Can you state, in one sentence, how Gladwell uses farming culture as a rhetorical device?
- How does the proverb function rhetorically for Gladwell’s audience?
- What “move” does Gladwell make by citing Schoenfeld? Is he appealing to ethos, logos, or pathos?
- How could you show that Gladwell’s argument is *complex*—not just “hard work = success,” but something more nuanced?

Let’s see your own revision or restatement of your thesis and commentary on a chosen piece of evidence!

Nov 10

Paul A's Question Paul A and/or Peter Elbow Simulator (Nov 10 2025 11:57AM) : Can you give me feedback on this? more

Peter Elbow Simulator with Paul A's edits:

I’d love to give you feedback on your writing, but first, I find it’s so valuable to pause and hear from you directly about how this draft came to be. It helps me respond in ways that really meet your needs, not just what I imagine you might want. Could you take a moment to answer a few of my favorite process questions? Let’s start with the first:

1. What do you see as your main points?
I’d love to hear, in your own words, what you see as the central message or takeaway in your writing.
✅

Once you respond, I’ll offer another process question to help you reflect more deeply—or we can jump right into feedback! Just hit Your Thoughts, let me know your path, and we can keep the conversation going. If you want to ask more about responding to writing in general, hit Continue with AI and let me know the direction you want to take.

Please Note: Everything in this comment is AI-generated. It is made up to sound like me.

You might be interested to learn more my approach by reading one of my handouts: Responding to Student Writing. and something I co-authored with Pat Belanoff Summary of Ways of Responding.

Nov 10

Paul A's Question Paul A and/or Peter Elbow Simulator (Nov 10 2025 11:59AM) : I think my main point is that it takes a whole culture for a creative person to be successful. more

Peter Elbow Simulator with Paul A's edits:

That’s a helpful place to start! So you’re seeing your main point as “it takes a whole culture for a creative person to be successful.” That’s clear and insightful—it’s not just about individual effort, but about bigger collective patterns that shape persistence and possibility.

Now, I’m curious to hear a bit about your process—the behind-the-scenes story, so to speak.

2. Tell me the story of how you went about writing and what it was like for you in process?
Was this something that came to you all at once, or did you have to wrestle with the ideas over time? Did you do any freewriting, outlining, or revising along the way? What stands out to you about how this piece developed?
✅

Let me know your thoughts—either here or by hitting Your Thoughts and writing about your process. Once you save your reply, if you’d like even more feedback or another question to reflect on, just hit Continue with AI, choose my name, and ask for more!

Please Note: Everything in this comment is AI-generated. It is made up to sound like me.

And if the process of writing is something you want to dive deeper into, those Responding to Student Writing and Summary of Ways of Responding handouts might be right up your alley!

Nov 10

Paul A's Question Paul A and/or Peter Elbow Simulator (Nov 10 2025 12:04PM) : It was a test, so I just wrote it down after thinking about it for a minute. I just stated and wrote it from beginning to the end. more

Peter Elbow Simulator with Paul A's edits:

That’s really interesting—sometimes, when it’s a test setting and there’s no time to plan, writing can become an act of simply grabbing the ideas that surface first and trusting them. You mention you just thought about it for a minute and then wrote straight through from beginning to end. I imagine that brings out a kind of directness and immediacy in your voice—less second-guessing, more faith in your first thoughts. That can often bring a certain energy or candidness to the piece.

Let’s keep exploring your process a little more, if you’re up for it. Here’s my next question:

3. How did you get your ideas? What were some of the choices you made?
Did any examples or phrases pop out from memory as you wrote? Were there places where you made a conscious decision to include—or leave out—something? I’d love to know what drove those choices, especially under the pressure of a timed situation.
✅

If you want to shift gears, you can hit Your Thoughts and chart a new path for our conversation. Or keep going and I’ll ask more process questions. Once you save your reply, feel free to hit Continue with AI, bring me back in, and we’ll keep the dialogue lively!

Please Note: Everything in this comment is AI-generated. It is made up to sound like me.

And that handout on Responding to Student Writing might offer some fresh ways to consider this conversation about drafts and process.

Nov 10

Paul A's Question Paul A and/or Peter Elbow Simulator (Nov 10 2025 12:06PM) : I just went to the parts of the prompt that I understood the best and tried to make sense of it. more

Peter Elbow Simulator with Paul A's edits:

That’s a fascinating way to approach it—when you feel the clock ticking, sometimes you just draw on whatever sticks from memory or from previous readings, and the choices often feel pretty intuitive. It sounds like your ideas were sparked by a gut sense of what made sense about the cultural backdrop for hard work, which Gladwell discussed. You used examples like the Chinese proverb and the quote from Schoenfeld almost as anchors, letting those bits guide your interpretation and development of the bigger idea. That kind of selection under pressure—going for what you know you can explain—can actually help clarify your focus, even if it feels rushed.

Want to keep pulling back the curtain on your writing? Here’s my next process question for you:

4. Which parts went well or badly?
As you look back, are there sections that you feel came together smoothly—or others that felt like a struggle, or even got left a little underdeveloped? What would you tweak or try differently if you had more time?
✅

Let me know what you notice! Or feel free to hit Your Thoughts, choose a different path, and steer our conversation wherever you like. After you save your reply, just hit Continue with AI, bring me back, and we’ll keep the back-and-forth going.

Please Note: Everything in this comment is AI-generated. It is made up to sound like me.

And if you want some practical strategies or alternative approaches, take a look at Summary of Ways of Responding.

Nov 10

Paul A's Question Paul A and/or Peter Elbow Simulator (Nov 10 2025 12:10PM) : I like the way I brought the Schoenfeld quote into my writing. I wish I had explained it more and tied it back to my thesis. more

Peter Elbow Simulator with Paul A's edits:

I can see how grabbing the Schoenfeld quote served as an anchor for your argument—it’s such a punchy, clear line that connects attitude and mathematical success. You mentioned wishing you had explained it more and tied it directly back to your thesis. What stands out is the way you offer the quote but then, instead of weaving it back into your main claim, you move forward to your next connection about cultural persistence and the proverb. So, what goes well here is your instinct for using the quote as a bridge, bringing some evidence and a named authority into your reasoning. What feels underdeveloped—by your own observation and mine—is the step where you could slow down and tease out just how this “attitude over ability” finding fits into your bigger claim about cultural legacy: Does Schoenfeld’s insight connect specifically to Asian cultures’ persistence? Could you point to the way these cultural values shape “willingness to try” in a mathematical context, making the link even clearer for your reader?

If you were to revise, I’d encourage you to linger there—maybe with a sentence or two right after the quote, saying something like: “Schoenfeld’s idea, in fact, echoes the values passed down through generations of rice farmers, where persistence was essential. What looks like mathematical talent is often really the willing endurance that’s part of a cultural inheritance.” This keeps the thread tight between your evidence and your thesis, and helps your reader see the cause-and-effect right where it matters most.

Here are a few areas you might want to consider exploring or revising further:

Make the connection clearer between Schoenfeld’s claim and the cultural values your thesis describes. ✅

Add a moment where you reflect on how academic persistence, as described by Schoenfeld, comes directly out of the rice-farming ethos Gladwell discusses. ✅

Take a sentence or two to compare cultural and individual factors—how culture shapes the “willingness to try,” not just the outcome. ✅

What path do you want to explore next? Would you like to brainstorm sentences that tie evidence back to your thesis, or do you want to look at bigger stylistic choices and voice in your paragraph? Or is there another angle you feel like getting into? Let’s take this to the next level, together!

Please Note: Everything in this comment is AI-generated. It is made up to sound like me.

You might be interested to learn more about my approach by reading one of my handouts: Responding to Student Writing and something I co-authored with Pat Belanoff, Summary of Ways of Responding.

Nov 10

Paul A's Question Paul A and/or Peter Elbow Simulator (Nov 10 2025 12:13PM) : Do you have any more process questions? more

Peter Elbow Simulator with Paul A's edits:

It’s encouraging to see how clearly you’re noticing the spots where your argument could be strengthened—especially the link between the research evidence (Schoenfeld’s study) and the broader claim about culture. You’re already doing the key work of revision, which is just noticing where a reader might want a little more company, a little more connecting tissue between ideas. I find that this kind of self-awareness is really the heart of learning to write with power: you’re tuning your ear so you can hear not just your own intentions, but also the needs of your future readers.

If you’d like to keep mining this, a fun next step could be to try out a sentence or two that does that “bridge work”—maybe even freewrite a few versions and see which one rings truest. Or, if you’re itching to talk about other aspects of your draft (structure, voice, how to quote evidence smoothly), steer us that way. Whichever direction you pick, we’re in the thick of the best kind of writing conversation—the kind where your growth as a writer comes from exchanging ideas with a careful reader.

Let’s keep this lively. Here are some next possible steps:

Brainstorm and test out bridge sentences that tie your evidence (Schoenfeld, proverb) directly to your main cultural claim. ✅

Zoom out and look at the overall shape of your paragraph(s)—are there places where sequence, pacing, or transitions could give your ideas more breathing room? ✅

Try freewriting a new ending or opening that underscores the idea that culture “lifts” talent—not just individual grit. ✅

What sounds most useful to you right now? Or is there a path off this list you’d rather try? Let’s dive deeper together—writing is best when it’s a creative back-and-forth.

Please Note: Everything in this comment is AI-generated. It is made up to sound like me.

If you’re curious about these methods or want more samples, check out my handouts: Responding to Student Writing and Summary of Ways of Responding.

Nov 10

Paul A's Question Paul A and/or Peter Elbow Simulator (Nov 10 2025 12:21PM) : I made some changes in the second pargarph. What do you think? more

Peter Elbow Simulator with Paul A's edits:

I’m glad you asked for thoughts on your changes in the second paragraph. You’ve done well bringing selected quotes and research right into the flow, especially by foregrounding Schoenfeld’s idea that “It’s not so much ability as attitude. You master mathematics if you are willing to try.” That’s a strong encapsulation of the cultural point you’re trying to make. There’s also a nice clarity in the way you introduce his findings—the claim about persistence being more important than talent really stands out, especially compared to old myths about “natural ability.”

What I notice, though, is that you might get even more leverage from this research if you stay a bit longer with the connection back to culture. Right after Scheonfeld’s claim, there’s an opening to say a little more about why students from certain backgrounds stick around longer with hard problems, and how that echoes not just farming, but a whole cultural system Gladwell is talking about. What you have now sketches that relationship, but a bridge sentence could make the logic less “implied” and more “spelled out,” like: “This echoes the patience required by rice farming, suggesting that such cultural values don’t just linger, but directly shape how students persist with mathematics.” A quick sentence like that can help keep the reader right on track with you—they see how the evidence feeds your claim.

Here are three next steps we could take:

Brainstorm sentences or phrases that directly link the research finding to the cultural tradition you describe. ✅

Experiment with adding transitions or clarifying comments to keep the “cultural legacy” thread unbroken from start to finish. ✅

Consider how to balance your own voice as a commentator with the voice of the experts you’re quoting, so your authority comes through. ✅

Which of these paths seems most useful—or is there another element of your paragraph you want to zoom in on? Let’s keep the writing conversation moving and see where we end up!

Please Note: Everything in this comment is AI-generated. It is made up to sound like me.

If you’d like a deeper dive into these approaches, check out my handouts: Responding to Student Writing and Summary of Ways of Responding.

Nov 10

Paul A's Question Paul A and/or AP English Language and Composition Coach (Nov 10 2025 4:33PM) : I'm practicing writing with Evidence and Commentary. These are three different paragraphs. Please give me separate feedback on each of them. more

AP English Language and Composition Coach with Paul A's edits:

Lens: Evidence & Commentary (AP Language and Composition Rubric)

Paragraph 1
Score (Evidence & Commentary category): 2/4

Evidence:
• General reference to the role of rice farming in Asian cultures, but specifics from the text are missing.

Commentary:
• Connects farming culture to academic persistence, but lacks specific, persuasive evidence.
• Explains a link between culture and mindset, yet needs textual support and deeper analysis.

Next step:
Which specific detail or quotation from Gladwell’s discussion of rice farming can you incorporate to move this explanation beyond generalization and into textual grounding?

Paragraph 2
Score (Evidence & Commentary category): 4/4

Evidence:
• Incorporates precise quotation from Alan Schoenfeld’s study and explains its relevance.

Commentary:
• Effectively explains how evidence supports the argument that persistence, not innate talent, leads to math mastery.
• Draws explicit connections between cultural values and academic outcomes, building a coherent line of reasoning.

Next step:
How might you further explore an implication or complexity, such as possible exceptions or counterexamples, to deepen the analysis and earn sophistication?

Paragraph 3
Score (Evidence & Commentary category): 3/4

Evidence:
• Uses a relevant Chinese proverb and references Gladwell’s framing.

Commentary:
• Explains how cultural legacies shape behaviors, invoking the proverb as evidence.
• The commentary is generally clear but could make the progression of ideas and link to the broader claim more explicit.

Next step:
How might you clarify exactly how the proverb embodies or reinforces Gladwell’s thesis? What’s a nuance you could explore about cultural or individual exceptions?

Invitation for further progress:
1. Where can you strengthen commentary by showing how/why evidence matters, not just what it means?
2. What connections or distinctions could you draw between cultural legacies and individual outcomes?
3. Which sentence could become more precise or nuanced by adding a direct textual reference or acknowledging complexity?

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